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Bzzzz



One and Only!
   
I know this is a TA message board but I think this subject is worth expressing our views on both individually and as the TAMB.

Every day on the news there seems to be another story about a child disappearing, being abducted, sexually abused or being found dead. I find it amazing, the regularity of these happenings. Take for example the two wee girls from Cambridgeshire that have disappeared... no traces and no clue. Their poor family.
What is happening and why? Is it just that previously these things were kept quiet? A number of paedophiles captured have not been aware that they were doing anything wrong... ???... HOW? Don't believe that for a second personally, I do not feel that the justice systems interpretation of these crimes for punishment are anyway near a deterent. When I was wee we used to leave our doors open and the kids wandered about without the first thought of any nastiness that might be lurking...
On the news a Policeman has been suspended after child porn being found on his pc...
It distresses me alot as a person who may be thinking about having a family myself in the next 5/10 years...

ps Apologies to anyone who may be sensitive to this subject or those that think here may be the wrong place to talk about this. I however feel the safety of children should be paramount in EVERY part of day to day life.

(Edited by Bzzzz at 4:26 pm on Aug. 12, 2002)

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Quia quamdiu Centum ex nobis viui remanserint, nuncquam Anglorum dominio aliquatenus volumus subiugari.

Total Posts: 3212 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 4:25 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
Jaggy Bunnet



Opinionated Wind Bag
   
What always amazes me about these incidents, and it is true of this one, is the people who call the police weeks later when the case is on Crimewatch or in this case when the reconstruction happened.

Apparently the police have taken 500 calls following the reconstruction, including one from someone who saw two young girls struggling with someone around the time they went missing.  Can anyone explain how we could have forgotten about this or not thought it relevant until a week later?  Or are we such a TV dominated culture that we don't believe anything has happened until we see it on the goggle box?

Total Posts: 201 | Joined April 2002 | Posted on: 4:39 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
Big Mick



GET A LIFE!!!
   
It just shows what a sad society we live in. Most folk when something like this happens must think that they do not want to waste police time by giving them only snippets of information. Do they not realise the enormity of such information?  

I'm sure the police would rather have the smallest piece of information rather than nothing at all, but 500 calls a week later may be just a little late. Why not phone on the Monday???  

I am not a pessimist by any stretch of the imagination, but I, like a few you on the board I'm sure, now suspect that the families of these two wee lassies are awaiting the worst news a parent can possibly have.

I can only imagine what they must be feeling right now.

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There are 3 types of people in life - Scots, people who would like to be Scots and people with no ambition at all !

Total Posts: 494 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 5:16 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
Brian Rodden



GET A LIFE!!!
   
Totally agree wi yous aw,i canny imagine what the families are going through,it seems to be happening to often these days.

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Gettin Magoo'd Is Good For You!

Total Posts: 626 | Joined Feb. 2002 | Posted on: 5:25 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
Jaggy Bunnet



Opinionated Wind Bag
   
Clearly happening at all is happening too often, but is it really happening any more than it ever did or do we just hear more about it than we would have before?

Not sure whether the figures would show any increase but is it possible that the reason we are more aware of it now is that the police have become much better at using the media and keeping the story alive for much longer.  Take the present case, the family made their first appeal (I think) one week after the disappearance and there has been a daily release of photos/videos to keep it in the papers.  I am not saying this is a bad thing but it can give the impression that such things are more common than they really are.

Also the national/international nature of the media means that we hear about things that not many years ago we would never have heard of.  This can give the impression of things getting worse over time but that can simply mean that reporting covers a wider area and you hear more of the bad news without the actual incidence changing.


Total Posts: 201 | Joined April 2002 | Posted on: 5:37 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
Jam



GET A LIFE!!!
   
It's an Awful thing.

I don't know if it happens that often or not. Another awful fact is that most child abuse/murder/etc is committed by parents or family not by strangers but the media focuses on abduction because I suppose it strikes an inate fear into us and people get emotionally involved in it. Saw a disgusting article in the Daily Mirror at the weekend where they had some stereotypical paedophile which they'd nailed. This guy's behaviour was disgusting but he basically fitted the part - slobbering, bad appearance, extremely ugly. Also don't want witchhunts like what happened a couple years ago.

God knows what has happened in this instance - really hope they find the poor girls alive.

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Yer haverin pash!

Total Posts: 678 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 5:50 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
BOBBY MR BEAN



Something to say
   
this incident has really shaken me up.

something MUST be done from now on to deter these
evil b*******s who do this sort of thing.

its a sad reflection on our society , when this despicable
crime is now reported in the media on page 6 !!!!!!!!!!!

i really hope whoever has done this is made an example of ...THE PUNISHMENT MUST FIT THE CRIME

PLEASE LET HOLLY & JESSICA BE SAFE

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We'll tak them tae the hills whither
they like it or no.

Total Posts: 91 | Joined Dec. 2001 | Posted on: 7:01 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
TARTAN SCOUSER



GET A LIFE!!!
   
Firstly, well said Bzzzz and all of you who have posted on here.

I have a young family myself (regular readers may remember my posts during the WC when Mrs. TS bought them engurlund tops!)

The thing is it is now really difficult. I couldn't let my kids have the sort of freedom that I had at their ages. At first I thought it was me and the Mrs. being overprotective but as time goes on we have realised that these days it's impossible to be overprotective.

I don't pretend to have the answers (appart from the obvious, as suggested by Bobby Mr. Bean. The law has to start to protect our kids. I only hope that things get a lot better, very quickly.

I'm sure I speak for all on TAMB when I say our hearts and minds are with all parents affected by these unspeakable crimes.

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SIR ARCHIBALD DOUGLAS T.A.
=======================
Dubhghlas: Jamais Arriere!

Total Posts: 404 | Joined Feb. 2002 | Posted on: 8:37 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
coullzer



Talks too much
   
The papers should not have to offer a reward either if someone decides they'll say something cos theres money they are sick!!!

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He obviously meant it!!! (RONALDINHO)

Total Posts: 105 | Joined Feb. 2002 | Posted on: 8:43 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
Kernaghan



GET A LIFE!!!
   
It's no consolation, but I don't think it's happening more than it did in the past. It's probably less, but try telling these parents that eh.

I was in Germany last year, and exactly the same thing was happening, only more often, so it's not just us. It's a human thing I'm afraid.

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one cross

Total Posts: 1248 | Joined Nov. 2001 | Posted on: 10:43 pm on Aug. 12, 2002 | IP
Bzzzz



One and Only!
   
Which makes it more mystifying as to why we are not taking a stronger stand against it.
The punishment MUST fit the crime.

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Quia quamdiu Centum ex nobis viui remanserint, nuncquam Anglorum dominio aliquatenus volumus subiugari.

Total Posts: 3212 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 12:09 am on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
danny divers



GET A LIFE!!!
   
IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY OPINION THAT IF FOUND GUILTY THEN THEY SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY BE SET FREE. LET THE THREAT OF THE FAMILY TREATING THEM IN THE SAME WAY AS THEY TREATED THE KIDS AND THEY JUST MIGHT THINK LONGER BEFORE THEY ACT.
ACTUALLY THIS IS THE FIRST SENSIBLE POST THAT I CAN REMEMBER BZZZ MAKING. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG. (but on a different thread as i would not like to see this one trailing off too soon)

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LIFE IS LIKE AN ASHTRAY;
FULL OF LITTLE DOUBTS.
AWRABEST DANNY

Total Posts: 344 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 2:04 am on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
Rista UF



GET A LIFE!!!
   

Quote: from Kernaghan on 10:43 pm on Aug. 12, 2002


I was in Germany last year, and exactly the same thing was happening, only more often, so it's not just us. It's a human thing I'm afraid.


The whole world went crazy. There should be a death penalty for those sick bastards!



Total Posts: 417 | Joined Mar. 2002 | Posted on: 9:04 am on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
Jaggy Bunnet



Opinionated Wind Bag
   
Sorry but I cannot agree with a death penalty - you just need to look at the significant percentage of convicted murderers who have ultimately won appeals/pardons to show that the system is nowhere near safe enough to allow the death penalty.

To follow up on my earlier point about people waiting a week before calling the police with reports of sightings, I see that the taxi driver actually called four days ago but the police have only now realised the potential significance.  Does this indicate that the police investigation was wrongly targetted (focussing on the internet/chat room angle) or that one of the most high profile investigations in recent years had insufficient resources to cope with the information coming in?  Either scenario is pretty depressing.

Total Posts: 201 | Joined April 2002 | Posted on: 9:57 am on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
ScottishMagpie


Talks too much
   
It's no worse today that it was years ago, it's only more widely reported.  If you look at the most infamous child killers in recent history in the UK, it's Brady & Hindley and that was in the 1960s.

What does happen these days is that it is a huge media circus & society as a whole needs to take a look at itself as why that is so interesting.

One thing to remember is that the vast majority of child abuse is carried out within the family unit itself or by people who are known to the children.

One thing I did think that may be a contributing factor however is that youth clubs, etc., are a lot more careful when it comes to who they use and so people who would previously have used that as a conduit for their preversion are forced into more drastic measures like snatching kids, which will always end in tragedy - those kids are dead.

Total Posts: 108 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 10:01 am on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
sonny



GET A LIFE!!!
   
We can gauge how healthy our society is by our response to these things.

There is no point focusing on punishment. If you want to understand and prevent these things i.e. actually care about our children's safety then we should try and not use use words like "evil" as it explains nothing.

Sadly, there is a growing trend in the Uk and we do compare unfavourably with other countries. Countries with strong social systems like Scandanavia are virtually free of these crimes.

The reasons are perhaps to complicated to be aired on this forum. I'll venture that our class-system, lack of social services and consumer culture make some people feel that they are not virile as people and so they pick on those weaker than them, kids, to make themselves feel more powerful in a society that has marginalised them.

People who do these abductions are definately mentally ill and not "evil" at all. The word "evil" is only used when people are in denial that human behaviour is either too complicated for them, they have suffered themselves or they don't want things to improve.

Violence against children is equally as likely to come from females as males.

What we have is a picture of a society which would rather hang and flog resulting in the cause of the problems not being delt with and so ensure that the problems remain instead of one which tries to understand, treats people like citizens and does not alienate people to the point where these problems are made worse as is the case.

Our selfish, post-thatcherite society has many consequencies and rape, abduction, murder are all part of that. We can't go down that road where fowks want to barb-wire their walls, we need to look at the causes and make sure that people are not driven towards these mental problems.

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When up they gat, and shook their lugs, Rejoiced they were nae men but dogs; An' each took aff his several way, Resolved to meet some ither day.

Total Posts: 2448 | Joined Jan. 2002 | Posted on: 11:56 am on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
americaninparis



Something to say
   

Quote: from Jaggy Bunnet on 5:37 pm on Aug. 12, 2002
Clearly happening at all is happening too often, but is it really happening any more than it ever did or do we just hear more about it than we would have before?

Not sure whether the figures would show any increase but is it possible that the reason we are more aware of it now is that the police have become much better at using the media and keeping the story alive for much longer.  Take the present case, the family made their first appeal (I think) one week after the disappearance and there has been a daily release of photos/videos to keep it in the papers.  I am not saying this is a bad thing but it can give the impression that such things are more common than they really are.



that's what's happening in the US, jaggy.  over the last year or two there have been several highly publicized stories of children being abducted.  of those that have been located, most have been (tragically but unfortunately not surprisingly) abused and killed.  folks here have been asking the same question:  has there been a dramatic increase in child abductions or are we just hearing more about them now?  apparently the statistics haven't changed much but lately the media have decided to give nationwide attention to cases that previously might have received only local attention.  not sure whether that's the case in the UK or not.  

in general, i think the heightened media coverage is a good thing -- it obviously increases awareness of a serious problem, and sometimes has an effect on the outcome.  a few weeks ago in california, a man kidnapped two teenage girls at gunpoint, drove them into the desert, raped them, and tied them up in order to kill them.  within hours of the kidnapping, the story was all over the media and the state was posting alerts with descriptions of the man, the girls, and the vehicle all over the highways.  the police were flooded with tips and they managed to catch up with the man in the desert, kill him, and rescue the girls.  the police estimated that he had been within 10 minutes of killing the girls.  a horrific experience for the girls no doubt, but a far better outcome than what might have happened if the media hadn't alerted the public to what was happening.

as a side point, it does bother me that there seems to be a racist/sexist/classist bias in the stories that the media chooses to publicize.  at least in the US, the missing children stories that get the attention nearly always involve middle-class or upper-middle-class white girls.  missing non-white children (girls or boys) and missing children from poor families don't tend to make the headlines.  is that the case in the UK as well?


Quote: from sonny on 11:56 am on Aug. 13, 2002
There is no point focusing on punishment. If you want to understand and prevent these things i.e. actually care about our children's safety then we should try and not use use words like "evil" as it explains nothing.



i agree that additional punishment is not the answer.  as i understand it, criminal punishment rarely has a deterrent effect anyway.  someone who's planning to abduct a child is not going to change his mind just because he thinks he might get the death penalty rather than be thrown in prison -- he's just not thinking about getting caught, or about the consequences if he does.  the US is one of the few developed nations that still has capital punishment -- if it were a deterrent then the US ought to have one of the world's lowest murder rates.  clearly that's not the case.  stepping up punishment might satisfy some basic revenge instinct but i'm not sure that it's going to decrease the number of crimes that are being committed.  as sonny suggested, it probably would be more effective to address the societal problems that would drive someone to do such a heinous thing in the first place.

(of course, that begs the question of what all those problems are and how we address them . . . but that'll have to be another thread)

Total Posts: 100 | Joined Mar. 2002 | Posted on: 3:38 pm on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
Jaggy Bunnet



Opinionated Wind Bag
   
AIP

There is undoubtedly a similar racist/sexist/class issue in the UK - around the same time a young girl and young boy disappeared, the case involving the girl was all over the papers/TV for weeks.  The first I heard about the disappearance of the boy was in a newspaper article where someone interviewed his mother about why she thought the same coverage hadn't been given in her case.  Her reply was "it doesn't involve a young, pretty girl."


Total Posts: 201 | Joined April 2002 | Posted on: 4:42 pm on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
Jam



GET A LIFE!!!
   
Well maybe for another thread but I don't see why not here. Clearly the traits of psychopaths are something to do with the inability to empathise. Else they would not do what they did because they would see the pain they are causing - make the empathising leap - and realise it was bad.

Dunno how to solve these things. Society is now more atomised than before but it seems to me that it takes a lot more than just a climate of "there is no such thing as society" as Thatcher (foolishly) put it to become the kind of psychopath that we have seen here. But yes I wouldn't discount that there could be some link although I think you'd get it anyway unfortunately. Contrary to what has been put forward I'm not sure if countries like Scandinavia suffer any less from abduction and child murder. I know their attitude to the crime is different - in Norway a few years ago there was such a child murder perpetuated by minors and rather than lock 'em up & throw away the key - the offending children were sent into some kind of psychiatric day care. Child abuse and misery seems to be unfortunately prevalent in society and much of is perpetrated by family and people known to the child. It's not just the unknown stranger even though that gets the coverage in part because it's drawn out and there's all the emotions around it.

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Yer haverin pash!

Total Posts: 678 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 4:42 pm on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
sonny



GET A LIFE!!!
   
Embarrasingly,
The Scandanavian experience is very different. A few years ago there was a rape and murder of a minor commited there by 2 British backpackers. It was the biggest scandal in years in Sweden. The parent of the dead girl stated her sympathy for the victimisers and said she hoped they got better.

That is dealing with loss in a healthy way! We are all encouraged here to blindly seek revenge and feel outrage which only ensures these problems never go away.

I doubt I'd be strong enough to deal healthily with such an experience. I'd want to kill my child's murderer and spend years not dealing with it etc.

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When up they gat, and shook their lugs, Rejoiced they were nae men but dogs; An' each took aff his several way, Resolved to meet some ither day.

Total Posts: 2448 | Joined Jan. 2002 | Posted on: 5:17 pm on Aug. 13, 2002 | IP
 

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